F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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Asif
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Posted: Nov 01, 2007 - 09:40 PM
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F-16.net Editor

Joined: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1768
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GovernmentExecutive.com wrote:
The Air Force's top general on Tuesday reaffirmed his service's commitment to fielding a new stealth bomber by 2018.
The future bomber will be capable of penetrating sophisticated enemy air defenses day or night, said Air Force chief Gen. Michael Moseley, at a breakfast in Washington hosted by Government Executive. To survive daylight raids in heavily defended enemy territory, the bomber would need to be fast and highly maneuverable in addition to stealthy.
"We can make 2018," Moseley said, "because we've asked industry to look at using the existing engines, existing sensors, existing weapons, weapons bays, just like we built the F-117 in the late '70s and early '80s. We used F-15 landing gear; we used internal structures off of other airplanes."
He noted that the export to potential enemies of advanced fourth-generation integrated air defenses and modern Russian-built Sukhoi and MiG fighters means many existing Air Force jets would not survive future air campaigns. "The 2018 [bomber] will have the signatures and the capability to survive day or night in any of those environments," Moseley said, adding that the new bombers will "tear up" enemy air defenses.
The Air Force currently has only 21 B-2 penetrating bombers, Moseley said. The service's 97 B-52 and 67 B-1 nonstealth bombers have proved to be "wonderful trucks" to use over Iraq and Afghanistan to provide 24-hour air support to ground forces, but would not survive against modern air defenses, he said. The new fifth-generation bomber will be much stealthier than even the B-2 stealth bomber and F-117 stealth fighter, as those planes used 1970s and 1980s technology, he added.
The 2006 Quadrennial Defense Review directed the Air Force to field a follow-on to the B-2 bomber by 2018. There has been considerable speculation surrounding what a new bomber will look like. In 2002, then-secretary James Roche directed the Air Force to look at modifying the Lockheed Martin-built F-22 Raptor fighter into an "FB-22" version. The B-designation indicates bomber.
Studies by Lockheed Martin showed an FB-22 -- which would largely resemble the existing F-22 but with larger wings that would hold more fuel to extend its range -- would offer improved stealth, the ability to defeat enemy fighters and the possibility of a two-man crew to ease pilot strain during long-range bombing missions.
But some discount the idea of a future bomber resembling an F-22. "To get the range and payload" the Air Force wants in a new bomber, the service would need a much larger aircraft, said Rebecca Grant, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute, an Arlington, Va., think tank.
Moseley said the Air Force has a stated need for 381 F-22 fighters, although the service has been authorized only 183 by the Office of the Secretary of Defense. He said without the full 381, the Air Force would not be able to generate as many attack sorties as would be required in future wars.
Instead of the traditional 24 planes per squadron, squadrons would have only 18 F-22 jets. "You don't have the overall capacity to deploy and generate forces with 183 total versus 381... [you have] less ability to provide the capacity to theater commanders, less sortie generation rate, less training capacity," Moseley said.
He said that beyond the 2018 bomber, the Air Force is considering a next-generation one that will incorporate much greater "technological leaps." New technologies the service is examining include a Mach-5 speed capability and the ability to fly at very high altitudes -- possibly exoatmospheric ones.
The Air Force chief also said the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are straining current defense budgets, and added that it's time for the country to have a discussion on the percentage of gross domestic product that is devoted to defense spending. Current defense spending is close to 4 percent of GDP.
While declining to state a desired percentage, Moseley said, "I think on the aegis of what would be a 1 percent or 0.5 percent [increase], what would that mean to the Army's Future Combat Systems, Navy shipbuilding, Marine modernization... and recapitalization of the Air Force. I think there is something there to have a reasonable discussion."
Air Force Gen. T. Michael Moseley Transcript, Part One
Air Force Gen. T. Michael Moseley Transcript, Part Two |
_________________ Asif Shamim
F-16.net Editorial staff & Patch Gallery Administration
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Posted: Nov 23, 2008 - 1:08 AM
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Maffa
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Posted: Nov 01, 2007 - 10:16 PM
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sorry to be so polemic but this makes me think.
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Moseley said the Air Force has a stated need for 381 F-22 fighters, although the service has been authorized only 183 by the Office of the Secretary of Defense. He said without the full 381, the Air Force would not be able to generate as many attack sorties as would be required in future wars.
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The Air Force chief also said the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are straining current defense budgets, and added that it's time for the country to have a discussion on the percentage of gross domestic product that is devoted to defense spending. Current defense spending is close to 4 percent of GDP.
= gotcha.
BTW, Navy just refused a second LCS in few months due to requested budget increasing. Sometimes, someone can say "no".
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"We can make 2018," Moseley said, "because we've asked industry to look at using the existing engines, existing sensors, existing weapons, weapons bays, just like we built the F-117 in the late '70s and early '80s. We used F-15 landing gear; we used internal structures off of other airplanes."
what was it? Enemies still have to find a way to detect F-117s, and they are hurrying into something stealthier than B-2s? Something is wrong, or USAF policy is to be two generations ahead of competitors?
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He noted that the export to potential enemies of advanced fourth-generation integrated air defenses and modern Russian-built Sukhoi and MiG fighters means many existing Air Force jets would not survive future air campaigns.
What country is he talking about? Who can afford to BUY SU-37s and S300s and SA-15 in such a large amount to threaten US 4th gen. air forces? Nuclear powers like China or Russia? Or Venezuela and Syria? If they really cared for numbers, they whould have seen LM invoices some time ago. |
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Beazz
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Posted: Nov 02, 2007 - 02:14 AM
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Maffa wrote:
sorry to be so polemic but this makes me think.
Quote:
Moseley said the Air Force has a stated need for 381 F-22 fighters, although the service has been authorized only 183 by the Office of the Secretary of Defense. He said without the full 381, the Air Force would not be able to generate as many attack sorties as would be required in future wars.
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The Air Force chief also said the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are straining current defense budgets, and added that it's time for the country to have a discussion on the percentage of gross domestic product that is devoted to defense spending. Current defense spending is close to 4 percent of GDP.
= gotcha.
GOT WHAT exactly?? 8% of GDP would make me feel safer. That is as long as the money is spent protecting America.
BTW, Navy just refused a second LCS in few months due to requested budget increasing. Sometimes, someone can say "no".
Your point is?
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"We can make 2018," Moseley said, "because we've asked industry to look at using the existing engines, existing sensors, existing weapons, weapons bays, just like we built the F-117 in the late '70s and early '80s. We used F-15 landing gear; we used internal structures off of other airplanes."
Well I don't presume to know USAF policy, but seems to me if we had the capability to be 4 generations ahead of the enemy, then that's EXACTLY what we should be doing. Only a fool would sit on their can with their thumb up their butt waiting on the enemy to catch up!!
what was it? Enemies still have to find a way to detect F-117s, and they are hurrying into something stealthier than B-2s? Something is wrong, or USAF policy is to be two generations ahead of competitors?
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He noted that the export to potential enemies of advanced fourth-generation integrated air defenses and modern Russian-built Sukhoi and MiG fighters means many existing Air Force jets would not survive future air campaigns.
There are many rogue nations buying this stuff from Russia and China and for the USA to simply write off X amount of a/c and personel to them in the name of saveing money is T-Totally unacceptable in my book.
Maffa I am sorry but it seems your agenda is clear. You wish the USA to cut back on it's spending in order to again help your countrys welfare programs and most lilkely spend more in the defence of Italy. Maybe you should be in contact with YOUR political leaders and have them work on defending and spending more on your own country.
The USA is not going to base it's defence spending on the needs of Italy and it most certainly is NOT going to base it on any comments on this forum.
Have a nice day Maffa!!
What country is he talking about? Who can afford to BUY SU-37s and S300s and SA-15 in such a large amount to threaten US 4th gen. air forces? Nuclear powers like China or Russia? Or Venezuela and Syria? If they really cared for numbers, they whould have seen LM invoices some time ago. |
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Neno
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Posted: Nov 02, 2007 - 09:33 AM
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Beazz, first of all nobody is asking USA to base it's defense spending on the needs of Italy !.. Instead maybe we can say that a big amount of Italian's (dramatically poor) defense budget is spent on flanking USA's mission in Iraq and Afghanistan (often without ONU consensus).
Maffa, the '117 was built to face threat of 20 years ago.. Technology goes very fast !
Maybe we can say the Nighthawk was retired too early and maybe it would have again something to say over the battlefield.. |
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Maffa
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Posted: Nov 02, 2007 - 11:42 AM
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((Beazz, first of all a technical note: please quote correctly, it will be easier for everyone.))
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your point is?
this one:
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Sometimes, someone can say "no".
i.e. looks like other forces can stop budget sinking projects. AF still have to find propoer funds for existing or ongiong projects, and presents a project for another stealth bomber while the others are still up-to-date, invisible and unbeatable (as they say).
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Well I don't presume to know USAF policy, but seems to me if we had the capability to be 4 generations ahead of the enemy, then that's EXACTLY what we should be doing. Only a fool would sit on their can with their thumb up their butt waiting on the enemy to catch up!!
the point is US nor any other country in the world can have the capability to keep 2 gens gap between them and the others, and on the other hand it would be useless and harmful, because there will be the same history repeating (B-2's, F-22's, etc), with a supadupa aircraft in laughable quantities. Then i do totally agree with you that it is stupid to match "fairly" with enemies, and you have to keep a substantial edge on known and potential enemies, but deterrence is also made by numbers, or better by a sustainable and affordable mix of numbers and technology.
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There are many rogue nations buying this stuff from Russia and China and for the USA to simply write off X amount of a/c and personel to them in the name of saveing money is T-Totally unacceptable in my book.
not in the quantities that could threaten US 4th gen. airpower... I mean: venezuela? :/
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Maffa I am sorry but it seems your agenda is clear.
I already answered to you on this. I wont go on it again, poisoning each and every thread defending MY intentions. I beg you, though: I dont know you, you dont know me, sorry bud, you cant read my mind, so stop trying. Just stick on what you read, and try to bring in some added value like data or motivated opinions, something more than this redneck boastful "America-will-kick-everybodys-a$$" attitude. I admire your pride, I really mean it and already told you i like America, but your pride cannot be your sole argument, nor discussions like those you see in this forum can be done basing them on matters of faith like US economical and militar omnipotence. You told your job was air control, so i guess you are an educated person, someone who can do a little more than this. Please try to raise the discussion level. I do not assume i am right, but i wont let down against no arguments.
As far as foreign bases are concerned, i will open a thread for you in Air power Category, where we can discuss on this topic too -and you will discover what I think about it. |
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MKopack
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Posted: Nov 02, 2007 - 04:23 PM
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general_samkari wrote:
wow. this thing will be better than any bomber today.. makes you wounder who they will use it against.
Hopefully no one. That's the whole point.
It's nice to be able to tell a potential enemy to think twice - that we can put a _____-bomb in their mailbox - and there's nothing that they can do to stop it.
Mike |
_________________ F-16A/B/C/D P&W/GE Crew Chief and Phased Maint.
56TTW/63TFTS 1987-1989
401TFW/614TFS 1989-1991
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Maffa
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Posted: Nov 02, 2007 - 04:33 PM
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Quote:
It's nice to be able to tell a potential enemy to think twice - that we can put a _____-bomb in their mailbox - and there's nothing that they can do to stop it.
which is something that cannot be said nowadays, isnt it?  |
Last edited by Maffa on Nov 02, 2007 - 05:03 PM; edited 1 time in total
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elp
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Posted: Nov 02, 2007 - 04:41 PM
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Also in the news today, USAF discovered a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to pay for all of the things it wants.  |
_________________ - ELP -
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Maffa
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Posted: Nov 02, 2007 - 09:11 PM
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elp wrote:
Also in the news today, USAF discovered a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to pay for all of the things it wants.
please say it true: 24th Special Tactics Squadron commandoes were dispatched to secure the area and retrieve precious cargo. |
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Thumper3181
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Posted: Nov 03, 2007 - 05:56 AM
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Quote:
which is something that cannot be said nowadays, isnt it?
I think you are missing the point Maffa. Military aircraft have very long gestation periods. It can take 20 years from concept to procurement. This bomber, like the F-35 and the F-22 is not going to be built based on today's threat but the threats possible in the 2015-2030 time frame. Since no one has yet come up with a perfect crystal ball the air force wants to build the most capable system that money can buy.
Please don't start the US is broke mantra. I have been around long enough to remember 30 year T BIlls and 18 percent interest rates. The national debt is less than 70% of GDP and the projected budget deficits are again trending down. |
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psychmike
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Posted: Nov 03, 2007 - 06:49 AM
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Thumper3181 wrote:
Please don't start the US is broke mantra. I have been around long enough to remember 30 year T BIlls and 18 percent interest rates. The national debt is less than 70% of GDP and the projected budget deficits are again trending down.
Off topic - I don't know much about finance but I do know that the US economy seems to be in uncharted waters. Historically, US debt was held principally by Americans. Today, an increasing amount of US debt is being owned by other countries - notably China. China's currency is being kept artificially low by their government. If it were allowed to fluctuate freely, the value of the yuan would likely go up and the country would not need to purchase as much US debt as it does now to keep its currency pegged where it is. That means US interest rates would go up significantly. In other words, US interest rates are being kept artificially low by China in order to increase its trade with the US.
Lots of folks think that China should revalue its currency quickly so US manufacturers can be on more of a level playing field but a higher valued yuan would also mean that China could purchase more US interests and international oil. Clearly, there isn't a simple answer but it all sounds kinda shaky to me.
Mike |
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Maffa
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Posted: Nov 03, 2007 - 02:11 PM
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Quote:
This bomber, like the F-35 and the F-22 is not going to be built based on today's threat but the threats possible in the 2015-2030 time frame. Since no one has yet come up with a perfect crystal ball the air force wants to build the most capable system that money can buy.
This brand new bomber will be ready in 10 years, not 20. Its half the time. This new bomber will replace B-1B's and B-52 because, following your reasoning (which i agree with, how couldnt I), they will be out-of-date. So this new bomber will have to replace 67 B-1Bs and 94 B-52. Now: has anybody the feeling that B-1Bs are inadeguate? Has anyone any news about enemies' technology breakthrough, or any new jet/bomber model study? Or is it that USAF chiefs want a stealth only AF? The fact is he points out tomorrow enemies will be "countries" who will buy enough russian made material such as Su-37's, SA-17s and so on: who can afford to spend such amounts of money to counter 67 B-1B's, nowadays? And who will in the next 10 years? Why producing a brand new item, instead of updating the previous models?
Stealthiness, youd say. That's another point. Legacy aircrafts were updatable and had service lenghts measurable in twenty to fifty years. Thats because you change a software, attach a pod, put a brand new EW/radar/whatever gimmick and you have a life prolongment. With stealthiness, once your stealth frame is out-of-date, 10 years or three hours doesnt count a thing: take the airframe and throw it away in the boneyard.
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Please don't start the US is broke mantra.
i dont think US is broke. I think USAF wants more than budget can cope with. It happened with B2's, now it has happened with F-22s: or USAF have powerful enemies inside GAO's offices, or they think that accepting a few expensive aircraft will let some room for negotiations after, also because there will be no alternative, i.e. affordability is just a empty word. They just blame war in Irak and Afghanistan to spoil their plans and budgets for Big Wars, while doing not enough to cope with these existant conflicts. Now they ask for a 1.0% GDP more for all future expenses involving Army and Navy: a 1% more is a HUGE request, dont really know Americas internal politics very well but i guess any european governement wouldnt dare to move this much on any economic sector (and, no Beazz, it hasnt nothing to do with "welfare").
The feeling i have is that with JSF and F-22 USAF simply tried to bit off more than their budget can chew, and yet here they come again with this near future bomber. |
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Beazz
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Posted: Nov 03, 2007 - 03:24 PM
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Maffa
All I can say is I am glad yur not the one in charge of keeping the US miliatary up to date and *ahead* of the game. You literally have no concept about what it takes. To assume, as you do, that no one will match the current crop of harware is not only silly, it's DANGEROUS!! To sit idly by as you wish, at some point and time the US would be matched and then be on equal footing with the enemy. And NO that does not mean we would lose, BUT it does mean that more Americans would die in route to the eventual victory and if the military brass in charge had done like you are so hell bent on getting the US to do, Myself and many Americans would be demanding their heads on a silver platter for allowing our military to be in such a position.
On another note Maffa,
I decided to go back and read some of your other posts and was quiet shocked. From day one when you joined this forum you started out with a post asking for military *tactics* and played the I am *naive* game. From there without exception you have been trying to persuade folks on here why the US military should cease and desist any and all upgrades to anything we have. You intentionally tried to make the general that wrote this article seem as if he was saying our entire *air force* would be threatened, when in fact that is not what he was emplying. But rather that us *a/c* would be in danger if we set still and he is completely correct because to sit still as you wish, would indeed allow the enemy to close the gap and therfore cause more US a/c to be lost in any conflict. NOT the entire US Airforce as you seemed to make it sound like he was emplying.
Then you plucked that lil blurb about the Navy cancelling that one LCS and emplying that they had cancelled the LCS. When in fact it was simply LCS 4 and I think LCS 2 that have been cancelled. One of the others is 70% complete and the USN still plans to have a fleet of 55 LCS's.
But what concerns me more then your total lack of understanding of the world is how over in *Other Military Aircraft* you AGAIN put forth another question about tactics for defeating an enemys defences by air. I remember when I read that post the first thing that popped to my mind was * that SOB is outright asking how an attack on Iran by the US could be stopped. And not only with legacy a/c. but with stealth a/c as well *
The first time a year ago you could play dumb. But under the current world conditions and knowing the tension between the USA and Iran and that an attack is very possible to ask something as you did is NOT a mistake to me. But even after some of the guys on here told you that was off limits, you came back and still pushed it by trying to get an answer from a different angle. Now I am not the least bit worried that anyone on here that knows the answers to what you ask would even consider telling it, BUT the fact you even ask is cause for concern in my book.
So what I have done and gathered all your lil comments and more specifically the ones asking about US tactics and will be sending it all off the Dept of Homeland Security as well as the FBI. They have people that can make a descision on whether or not you're just some dumb harmless kid or actually someone that means this country harm. I am also sure the ppl who run this forum should be able to provide the proper authoritys with an IP address so they can see if you actually are in Italy as you say. Not that that would prove anything, but it sure would be revealing if say your IP addy was from sowmwhere like Iran eh??
Anyhow,
Have a nice day Maffa,
Your friendly southern redkneck Beazz ) |
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Maffa
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Posted: Nov 03, 2007 - 05:13 PM
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OH NOES THEY ARE COMING FOR MEEEEE *wipes all the porno out of his hard disk*
Beazz, i dont know if I have to be honoured to officially have a stalker (which is a pride for but a few in the internet). In the meantime, keep your NSA, FBI, CIA, WH handy, because i will give you some other US enemies adresses to hand them off:
- <a href="http://www.defensetech.org/" target="_blank">Defencetech</a>, he's an hetzbollah friend of mine, made the same campus at Gaza (those were times!)
- <a href="http://warisboring.com" target="_blank" target="_blank">warisboring.com</a>, he's a Qaedian through and thru. Sometimes he's too serious for his health. Badly needs a laugh.
- <a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/2530001.html?page=1">Oh, this guy</a> is trying hard to convince americans to make it without weapons. will he make it? Lets hope so!
- <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2hu4sw">This guy has maybe gone too far</a>, he proposes USAF suppression altogether... let's wait and see, you can never know. (the un-tag-able link is part of a revolutionary theory of his own. never got the knack of it)
Anyway, i envy you. From your point of view, life must look like way simpler.
((PS: tell whoever you want, but for god's sake keep RIAA out of this. I have wife and children)) |
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Beazz
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Posted: Nov 03, 2007 - 08:42 PM
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Well thanks for the links. I read one so far and interesting read. How you think any of it compares to any way in which you conduct yourself or the info you seek baffles me.
Have a nice day.
Beazz |
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