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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1093 Status: Offline

[quote="dwightlooi"]

Scrappy wrote:

You HARM its radar then cluster bomb the launchers and other support vehicles.

The radar is ON the launcher. And supposedly TOR can kill Harms too. Think of it as a land-based Sea Wolf. Cluster weapons would be the way to do it but does anybody know how close they approach before deploying their submunitions? If it's inside a mile then they'd likely be dead before they had a chance to use them. Always thought the best way to kill these and S-400s would be something like an ATACMs that deploys GPS guided submunitions on the way up. Or an air-launched semi-ballistic missile that does the same.

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F-16.net Editor Joined: Sep 23, 2003 Posts: 2862

I don't know. But CBU-105_SFW_BLU-108b if it had a chance to deploy, would turn this and everything around it into a scrap heap. JASSM and JSOW are L.O. JSOW being unpowered, has a low heat sig.
It would also have interesting choices to make with a couple flights of TALDs in front of it. Probably not too hard to over-saturate.

SAMs haven't stopped us from delivering the mail. This one is no different.

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 1004 Status: Offline

[quote="sferrin"]

dwightlooi wrote:

Scrappy wrote:

You HARM its radar then cluster bomb the launchers and other support vehicles.

The radar is ON the launcher. And supposedly TOR can kill Harms too. Think of it as a land-based Sea Wolf. Cluster weapons would be the way to do it but does anybody know how close they approach before deploying their submunitions? If it's inside a mile then they'd likely be dead before they had a chance to use them. Always thought the best way to kill these and S-400s would be something like an ATACMs that deploys GPS guided submunitions on the way up. Or an air-launched semi-ballistic missile that does the same.

I don't know how effective it'll be in doing that. It is hard to kill an AAM or a HARM. It's like saying you can fire an AMRAAM against an incoming SAM. I am sure you can try to do that, but how successful you'll be is another thing. The other thing is simply volume of fire. A stealthy platform can simply fly in an drop SDBs at about 20~30km distance. A rain of 4 of them will be pretty hard to engage in time.

The TOR is a short range SAM. For the most parts it is only good for repelling helos and jets trying to do CAS. It cannot really offer significant protection against high performance jets trying to kill it. With its limited range (12~20km max), jets on SAD suppression mission will simply fly above it and/or circles around it while trying to kill it.

S-300V and S-400s are more challenging targets. But that is where stealthy platforms come in -- you don't have to go it hot with jammers blazing anymore. Basically, you'll detect them and be relatively undetectable until you are pretty close. If you are smart you'll log its position then approach under the horizon and pop a few weapons at it.

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2846 Status: Offline

Volume of fire. Exactly right. Remember the old Atari game "Missile Command"? Keep that in mind for a moment.

First, to kill a HARM, you'd have to successfully shoot down a missile, roughly the same size as an AIM-7 Sparrow, travelling around Mach 2. Even if it could kill a HARM, which is very unlikely, they would have to waste their missiles defending against inbound missiles.

Then, when they go Winchester, there's nothing to defend against the last one that comes in and kills the site. Make their defenses too task saturated to defend against the kill shot. Just like "Missile Command".

I was watching Discovery recently, and they spoke of the new AGM-88E, which can continue tracking when the bad guys turn their radar off.

By the way, stay tuned for more new tactics and strategies, based off of Frogger, Centipede, Asteroids, and Space Invaders.

TC wrote:

By the way, stay tuned for more new tactics and strategies, based off of Frogger, Centipede, Asteroids, and Space Invaders.

I take it they must be of russian origins. After all, they've had today's tech since 1976 and mounted on every display bird...

The ASM thing is of such credibility too. I happen to know about ships and believe me, their countermeasures and ECM is far more sophisticated (and size-y) than it's aircraft counterparts. Not to mention the active self-defense systems they have...I wouldn't trust 2 swarms of such missiles to hit even a frigate...

F-16.net Editor Joined: Sep 23, 2003 Posts: 2862

Well... it helps to have the gear turned on... then ship counter measures might work.... otherwise:

Sheffield -Defensive systems turned off to make a Satcom call
Stark -gear off
That recent newish Israeli vessel last summer. gear off

The skimmers might be able to delay being sunk but thats about it. Again, here.... over saturate.

I debate with a lot of Iranians all the time, they love to say that they will shoot down cruise missiles?

F-16.net Editor Joined: Sep 23, 2003 Posts: 2862

You just made me remember something..... My opinion only... I think the old TLAM might get shot up quite a bit vs. the TOR. Just an opinion. Laughing

Newbie Joined: Nov 20, 2006 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

LOL trust me the Tor M1 won't do any goood against an F 22 or B-2 even if it's in the engagement range and altitude of the Spirit and Raptor. But thinking a JDAM is gonna take out the Tor is sheer stupidity. These systems are extremely mobile and no bomb on coordinate weapon will hit it. You need something like AN SDB II,JSOW,JASSM etc. LOCAAS was good until it was cancelled but the SMACM program seems interesting.

On that note this might be of interest... LJDAM

Quote:

Boeing Successful in Second Laser JDAM Moving Target Test

ST. LOUIS, Sept. 18, 2006 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] successfully completed its Laser Joint Direct Attack Munition (LJDAM) weapon system flight test program on Sept. 15 with engagement of a target moving at 40 mph.

During the test at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., a U.S. Air Force F-16 flying at 20,000 feet released a 500-pound LJDAM and hit within lethal range of a Humvee moving at 40 mph. Using its onboard targeting pod, a second F-16 laser-designated the roof of the Humvee and guided the weapon to impact. On June 30, Boeing successfully tested LJDAM against an Armored Personnel Carrier moving at 25 mph.

Source

Newbie Joined: Feb 17, 2007 Posts: 1 Status: Offline

snypa777 wrote:

TOR M1 (SA-15), has a max ` engagement alt` of around 20K ft. with a max` range of 7-8 miles. It is supposedly a very agile and advanced missile. The US and Israel really disliked the sale of TOR M1 to Iran. That could tell it`s own story...What capabilities are they claiming and who is making the claims?

Cyprus was considering buying TOR M1 or the Aspide 330 system from Italy a few years back but I don`t recall the outcome...I think China and Greece, the Ukraine and of course Russia use the system..

Hello! The Tor-M1 is in effective service both in Greece(Hellenic Airforce/Hellenic Army) and Cyprus(Cyprus NAtional Guard)...i'd say that the claims in the article regarding its anti-stealth capabilities are a little far fetched Rolling Eyes

I dont buy it...

However you must consider that Stealth isn't the end road... It's beatable and these weapons WILL come to life, one day may it be tommorow or 10 years from now. Stealth doesnt dissipate radar it makes it less effective, all you need to do is make stronger radar systems, and judging at the rate that those things get stronger and smaller at the same time... it wont be long before the first fighter radar can lock on to a stealth aircraft at 20nm.

Enthusiast Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 37 Status: Offline

Well, stealth technology isn't standing still. As those radar systems improve, so does stealth.

Also, I've heard that the S-400 was so super special because it can share its data with other sites and can use other sites like multiple receivers. That got me thinking. Say radar A, B and C are working together to detect aircraft. Radar A sends a pulse of radiation in the direction a stealth aircraft happens be flying. Whatever amount of radiation that actually reaches the aircraft is totally butchered (absorbed and scattered in almost every direction). This means that radars B and C will probably not get enough radar waves to even detect the stealth. So what good would it do to try to share info or use multiple receivers when those other receivers cant see sh!t?

I've also heard that this long wave radar, which is suppose to be better at defeating stealth, is so inaccurate it wouldn't be feasible to use it against these modern aircraft.

Is all of this true or did I miss something?

F-16.net Editor Joined: Sep 23, 2003 Posts: 2862

urmomma158 wrote:

LOL trust me the Tor M1 won't do any goood against an F 22 or B-2 even if it's in the engagement range and altitude of the Spirit and Raptor. But thinking a JDAM is gonna take out the Tor is sheer stupidity. These systems are extremely mobile and no bomb on coordinate weapon will hit it. You need something like AN SDB II,JSOW,JASSM etc. LOCAAS was good until it was cancelled but the SMACM program seems interesting.

Depends. JDAM can take it out if it doesn't move. A snap shot with a JDAM could be a minute or less of bomb fly time. So... that is the time that one would have to make a decision to move. And oh btw even know that a weapon is on it's way down and/or toward them. JDAM has killed plenty of mobile hardware.... that at the time, wasn't moving.

elp wrote:

Depends. JDAM can take it out if it doesn't move. A snap shot with a JDAM could be a minute or less of bomb fly time. So... that is the time that one would have to make a decision to move. And oh btw even know that a weapon is on it's way down and/or toward them. JDAM has killed plenty of mobile hardware.... that at the time, wasn't moving.

I have a question I do not believe has been addressed before, or at least I have not seen it asked/answered: what IS the (approximate) RCS of your standard 500/1000/2000 lbs. JDAM??? What about the SDB? Has any attempt been made to apply RAM to any of the above? It wouldn't seem to make much sense to build a stealth platform whose weapons it releases have a bigger RCS than the aircraft itself. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the many black programs currently being worked on by the USAF includes a stealthy JDAM/SDB...

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