F-16.net

Printed from: F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference [http://www.f-16.net]
Document title: F-16 manuals: any opsec risk here? - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10961-sid-5bad6c5f3b3335232f1bef621cf8e796.html
Printed on: 19 November 2008

Forum: General

F-16 manuals: any opsec risk here?



Search Search  Register Register  Log in to check your private messages Log in to check your private messages
guidelines Forum Guidelines
Post new topic   Reply to topic   1, 2  Next
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
griffins_9
PostPosted: Aug 28, 2008 - 10:30 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 3

Status: Offline
While looking for old aircraft manuals (like F-86, B-57 etc) I came across the following site,

http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/.

on this sight if you check the following link you would some very interesting F-16 manuals which I would want to buy being an aviation enthusiast. However i am not sure whether it is legal/prudent to buy or sell these given the current status of the aircraft. although the site does say that all the manuals are de-classified. The F-16 manuals I am referring to are,

http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/F16.html

Request advice from people here who should know.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Sponsor
New postPosted: Nov 19, 2008 - 9:51 PM Back to top
F-16.net Sponsor





   
 
Racer181
PostPosted: Aug 28, 2008 - 09:10 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Posts: 181

Status: Offline
I don't think any of those manuals are classified, but if you feel that there is a threat to security you can contact Air Force OSI or Lockheed Martin about the issue.

_________________
Putting warheads on foreheads
SrA Joe
Former ACC 86-0258
181st Intel Wing "Racers"
Base Honor Guard
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
JoeSambor
PostPosted: Aug 28, 2008 - 09:18 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Dec 28, 2004
Posts: 399

Status: Offline
They aren't classified, but they are For Official Use Only. They are so old that they pretty much qualify as historical documents.

Best Regards,

_________________
Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
griffins_9
PostPosted: Aug 29, 2008 - 10:32 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 3

Status: Offline
JoeSambor wrote:
They aren't classified, but they are For Official Use Only. They are so old that they pretty much qualify as historical documents.

Best Regards,


even the Greek ones on Block 50??? This is news for me, perhaps you can explain for my benefit how the process for declassification of these type of manual runs?
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
JoeSambor
PostPosted: Aug 29, 2008 - 12:51 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Dec 28, 2004
Posts: 399

Status: Offline
They ARE NOT classified.

_________________
Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
JoeSambor
PostPosted: Aug 29, 2008 - 01:34 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Dec 28, 2004
Posts: 399

Status: Offline
A friend of mine who knows about these things reminded me that all of the foreign Flight Manuals contain the following statement:

DISCLOSURE NOTICE - This information is furnished on the conditions that it will not be released to another nation without the specific
authorization of the Department of the Air Force of the United States; it will be used for military purposes only; the recipient will report promptly to
the United States any known or suspected compromise; and the information will be provided substantially the same degree of security afforded it by
the Department of Defense of the United States. Also, regardless of any other markings on the document, it will not be downgraded or declassified
without the written approval of the originating US agency. Any request for this document should be referred to 501 ACSS/GFLB, 6089 Wardleigh
Road, Bldg. 1201, Hill AFB, UT 84056-5838.

All of the USAF FLight Manuals contain these statements:

DISTRIBUTION STATEMENT - Distribution is authorized to Department of Defense (DoD) components only (Direct Military Support). Other
requests for this document shall be referred to 501 ACSS/GFLB, 6089 Wardleigh Road, Bldg. 1201, Hill AFB, UT 84056-5838.

WARNING - This document contains technical data whose export is restricted by the Arms Export Control Act (Title 22, U.S.C. Sec. 2751 et seq) or
the Export Administration Act of 1979 as amended (Title 50, U.S.C. app. 2401 et seq). Violations of these export laws are subject to severe criminal
penalties. Disseminate in accordance with provisions of AFI 61-204.

So, should you buy these manuals online? You make the call.

Best Regards,

_________________
Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
ATFS_Crash
PostPosted: Aug 29, 2008 - 05:53 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 505

I think this could be possibly considered a security issue. Assuming that these aircraft or some similar aircraft are still in service, I would consider this to be somewhat sensitive information. Sure the information in the manuals are pretty old and much of the information is already available publicly; however I don’t think it is wise to make all the information publicly available or more widely known unless it has been cleared through proper channels.

I think this may not only be considered a security issue, it might be a copyright issue. Though much information can be obtained and is available to the public by the freedom of information act; that does not apply to things that are security sensitive and might be still under a commercial contract; therefore it might be considered a copyright violation.

(being a highly arrogant opinionated old fuddy-duddy) I would tend to be of the opinion that the site selling the manuals should be reported and let those that are better qualified decide if it is a violation and if it is worth pursuing. The cat is pretty much out of the bag in this case, however the situation might be used to make an example to prevent other similar indiscretions.

On a similar related tangent, I think there is a good World War II documentary/propaganda film that might show why I think this could be a security risk. “Resisting Enemy Interrogation”

In this propaganda film they gathered bits of information from several sources that all seemed very innocent; yet the information that they gained that seemed to be innocent and harmless was used tactically against us. Though the movie was fictional, the interrogation and intelligence gathering tactics were so accurate that when the Germans tried to use the same tactics on shot down imprisoned airmen that had saw the film, the air crews just laughed at the Germans and stuck to their name rank and serial number.

The movie demonstrates that public information like newspapers, slight physical evidence and minor indiscretions made by air crews can be used tactically by an enemy.


ATFS_Crash wrote:
There was an old World War II propaganda security film that I thought was pretty good. It was about some fictional pilots that were shot down after aborting a mission before reaching their target due to weather condition, and each of them revealed some apparently trivial unrelated information. But the Germans were asking questions in a apparently friendly innocent way, however it was very well-planned and intended. It was little things they let slip like there was a replacement crew member because the other had a slight head cold, and they aborted because of weather. The Germans were able to figure out it was a high-altitude mission and eliminate all the targets that had bad weather, and that let them narrow down possible targets. Eventually from all the questions they asked, they were able to figure out the intended target, so they were planning to concentrate their defenses because they knew the allies would try again.





Quote:
Many of FMPU's best films were little dramas which made their points by involving the audience in a story. One such example was "Resisting Enemy Interrogation", often cited as the best educational film to come out of the war.

The film featured a group of downed flyers who are captured by the Germans and brought to a chateau. They are separated from each other and are eventually tricked to reveal Air Force secrets. The film was so accurate and involving that a group of flyers, who had seen the film and were in fact later shot down and captured, revealed that life had imitated art. They too were brought to a chateau and when the Germans began their interrogation, it so resembled the film version, the airmen burst out laughing. The Germans' interrogation attempts proved unsuccessful.

-----

Among the five new prisoners arriving at Dulag Luft, a German Interrogation center for captured American air crews, are wounded flier Ralph Cole; Capt. James N. Spencer, the pilot commander; First Lieutenant Frank L. Williams, the co-pilot; Cooper, a frightened, young flier; and Technical Sergeant Alfred Mason. The Americans were captured in Italy, where their B-99 crashed while on a sortie to destroy German communication lines, and the German commander is frustrated by the discovery that much of their equipment, including bombs and identification papers, has been destroyed. The Nazis know that one of the crew is missing, but have few leads on the identities of the five prisoners, other than a newspaper clipping about Williams' father, who is the founder of the New England League Against Nazism. Initial interrogations by the Nazis reveal that Williams is talkative, and that Macson is fiercely loyal to his commander. Hoping to get more information by breaking the will of the weakest prisoner, the Nazi commander sends Cooper to solitary confinement. Spencer, meanwhile, is interrogated by the Nazis, but he refuses to divulge any information beyond his name, rank and serial number. Herr Mahler, a Red Cross representative, asks Spencer to sign admission papers, but Spencer knows it is a trick and refuses to complete the form. The Nazi commander abruptly ends his interrogation of Spencer by calling him the "uncooperative type." Later, Williams carelessly discusses Cole's identity with a man who introduces himself as a fellow American, and who offers Williams his friendship. From his hospital bed, Cole is tricked by a German nurse, who, while presenting herself as a victim of the Nazi regime, manages to extract information from the wounded soldier. Cole foolishly tells the nurse that his unit is from the fighter base at Naples, Italy, and speaks freely about his military service. Later, the major uses Spencer's admissions to coax Williams into talking in more detail about the fighting power of the B-99 bomber. From the information extracted from the prisoners thus far, the Nazis conclude that the Allies intend to strike an industrial center in a populated area. Mason provides the Nazis with further information about the B-99 and the mission when the major engages the technical sergeant in an argument about the plane's capabilities. When the Nazi commander threatens to harm Spencer if Mason does not give him more information, Mason panics and tells him more about the Air Force mission, including the information that it is to begin the following day. With the help of Cooper's inadvertent admission that the bombers will be carrying incendiary bombs and delayed-action bombs, the Nazis deduce that the mission will be hitting one of three targets in Budapest, Munich or Belgrade. Only hours before the start of the planned bombing mission, the Nazis determine that the target will be a Munich oil refinery. The information given to the Nazis by the airmen proves fatal for American fliers, as German fighter planes intercept and shoot down twenty-eight Allied bombers. Back at an Allied base, an American officer lectures his fliers on the dangers of speaking to Germans, and uses the failed mission as an example of the consequences of talking too much.


 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Racer181
PostPosted: Aug 29, 2008 - 09:17 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Posts: 181

Status: Offline
To back up what ATFS_Crash said. Items like F-16.net, newspapers, magazines, news casts, and other things aviable to the public are considered Open Source Inteligence. I won't go into the rest of what we do with it. But if you think whatever info your posting is no big deal you make my job just that much easier granted i could care less about US aircraft and tactics since i they are no threat to me. all i'm saying is watch what is posted, if you think there is a problem report it. The authorities would rather that than find out after something has been leaked.

BTW the USAF watches this website like a hawk, or should i say EAGLE.

Have a bandit day Smile

_________________
Putting warheads on foreheads
SrA Joe
Former ACC 86-0258
181st Intel Wing "Racers"
Base Honor Guard
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
JoeSambor
PostPosted: Aug 30, 2008 - 07:14 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Dec 28, 2004
Posts: 399

Status: Offline
Or Falcon?

Best Regards,

_________________
Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
StolichnayaStrafer
PostPosted: Aug 30, 2008 - 02:45 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Jan 20, 2008
Posts: 351

Status: Offline
Hey, you never know- I think the Norden Bomb Sight was not declassified until after the Vietnam war!

_________________
Why is the vodka gone?
Why is the vodka always gone... oh- that's why!
Hide the vodka!!!
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail  
 
griffins_9
PostPosted: Aug 31, 2008 - 03:34 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 3

Status: Offline
Racer181 wrote:
To back up what ATFS_Crash said. Items like F-16.net, newspapers, magazines, news casts, and other things aviable to the public are considered Open Source Inteligence. I won't go into the rest of what we do with it. But if you think whatever info your posting is no big deal you make my job just that much easier granted i could care less about US aircraft and tactics since i they are no threat to me. all i'm saying is watch what is posted, if you think there is a problem report it. The authorities would rather that than find out after something has been leaked.

BTW the USAF watches this website like a hawk, or should i say EAGLE.

Have a bandit day Smile


then by now i guess somebody in USAF must be checking out the site i mentioned. on a more serious note i was thinking about contacting USAF and sending them the site and asking them if it is ok to buy these manuals. perhaps somebody can send me some address i can check this with?

btw, such manuals are also avaiable at eflightmanuals.com however the site says that they are not availabe for export for teen series fighters.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
JpoLgr
PostPosted: Sep 05, 2008 - 08:28 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Enthusiast
Enthusiast


Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 82

Status: Offline
Boys,
I believe that -1's are declassified (what JoeSambor wrote is true by the way), same as the BEM, (AEM & MPM are kept classified, also APG-68 stuff is kept secret).

John
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
JoeSambor
PostPosted: Sep 05, 2008 - 09:42 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Dec 28, 2004
Posts: 399

Status: Offline
I would worry more about busting ITAR than anything else...

Best Regards,

_________________
Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
jimingreece
PostPosted: Sep 06, 2008 - 07:30 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: Sep 14, 2006
Posts: 6

Status: Offline
In General, Flight Manuals and for matter all T.O.s of U.S. produced aircraft/systems are released as "official use only". Any Classified portions are released in separate supplement manuals with the proper classification (usually Confidential or Secret). FMS users sometimes add a "higher" classification to their own specific aircraft books but this tends to be local use only since DoD sets the classification of all U.S.A.F. systems. Countries with specific non-USAF classified equipment in their aircraft will have separate classified manuals for these systems operation.

In the case of the GR -1 it is classified "official use only"; however, you could have some serious explaining to do if you were caught in Greece with one and you weren't in the HAF. The same situation would be true in most FMS countries, especially in the Middle East.

Jimmy
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
ATFS_Crash
PostPosted: Sep 06, 2008 - 02:11 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 505

jimingreece wrote:
In General, Flight Manuals and for matter all T.O.s of U.S. produced aircraft/systems are released as "official use only".


IMAO that means classified. It may not necessarily be a high level classification, but nevertheless that is a security statement. That statement means it is classified it does not state the level of classification.


I am saddened by those that say that this is not classified. Sure it might be unclassified if there is authorization, however if there isn’t authorization I think these words sum it up that it is classified/restricted information.


Quote:
DISCLOSURE NOTICE - This information is furnished on the conditions that it will not be released to another nation without the specific
authorization of the Department of the Air Force of the United States; it will be used for military purposes only; the recipient will report promptly to
the United States any known or suspected compromise; and the information will be provided substantially the same degree of security afforded it by
the Department of Defense of the United States. Also, regardless of any other markings on the document, it will not be downgraded or declassified
without the written approval of the originating US agency.
Any request for this document should be referred to 501 ACSS/GFLB, 6089 Wardleigh
Road, Bldg. 1201, Hill AFB, UT 84056-5838.

All of the USAF FLight Manuals contain these statements:

DISTRIBUTION STATEMENT - Distribution is authorized to Department of Defense (DoD) components only (Direct Military Support). Other
requests for this document shall be referred to 501 ACSS/GFLB, 6089 Wardleigh Road, Bldg. 1201, Hill AFB, UT 84056-5838.

WARNING - This document contains technical data whose export is restricted by the Arms Export Control Act (Title 22, U.S.C. Sec. 2751 et seq) or
the Export Administration Act of 1979 as amended (Title 50, U.S.C. app. 2401 et seq). Violations of these export laws are subject to severe criminal
penalties. Disseminate in accordance with provisions of AFI 61-204.


Some of you dismiss the security risk just because you say it’s old (historical). Sure some of our aircraft that are in service are sadly old and somewhat outdated, however ever since when is an aircraft that is in mainstream major service for national security; considered historical? Some of the last revisions to one of the manuals in question is from 2001. So you consider classified documents for military hardware to be public on the grounds of historical argument because they are only seven years old, even though the hardware may be in service?

Using that logic it should be okay to sell the technical manuals for the LGM-30 Minuteman; after all there are from the 1970s, therefore they are historical documents and should be available publicly. (I think that is ridiculous.)

If you don’t care that the aircraft is in service and you base your decisions just because an aircraft is a few years old. Then isn’t it about time that they make the technical manuals for the F-22 publicly available?

I bet there is a lot of customers that would be very interested in buying the manuals for the LGM-30, perhaps North Korea or Iran? I bet there is a lot of customers that would be interested in buying the technical manuals for the F-22, should we do it simply just because it’s a few years old? I think not.

Sure I understand that some of you might think it is silly in some ways to keep such old historical documents classified; after all it might prevent some gamer from making a new Lib for falcon 4.0 or a new F-22 game Sim. Sure let’s disregard our security so that gamers, hobbyists, wannabes and spies have better information.

If you worked for Lockheed Martin/Boeing; how long do you think you would keep your job if you started to release technical manuals on the F-22 to the public without the proper authorization? I think you would be lucky if you kept your freedom, let alone your job. If you did a similar thing in the military, I wouldn’t be surprised if it would buy you a dishonorable discharge and housing at the gray bar hotel based on treason.

Is it really wise that we let every country and Tom and Dick and Harry have the flight manual to one of the main aircraft that is responsible for many countries national defense? Do we really want to make it easier for hostile countries and people off the street to know how to operate our military aircraft.

May I remind you that there has apparently been several incidents that civilians have gained access to military aircraft and that it has resulted in their accidental death because they started ignorantly playing with the controls? Is it wise to give them more information so they have a better chance of starting up the aircraft and possibly getting off the ground so that whether it be carelessness. ignorance or malicious intent that they are more likely to kill people? Let’s make it easier for people to steal our aircraft. Let’s make it easier for people to reverse engineer and develop tactics.

Am I being melodramatic enough to get my point across?

Remember that before 9/11 and despite warnings from many security personnel and speculators; the idea that commercial aircraft could or would be used as terrorist weapons was scoffed at as ridiculous and after all they couldn't do much harm even if they did (the idea that it would be a coordinated multifaceted attack was scoffed that also). So please don’t scoff at the idea that something as simple as a flight manual for an F-16 could be used tactically against us or our allies.

If it was cleared by official channels, then fine. However even if it is cleared by official channels, I question the wisdom of releasing manuals and technical information of this sort in this detail to the general public.

There are still some things that are classified from World War II. It wasn’t until recently that "Exercise Tiger" was made public. It was a D-Day practice invasion that was good practice but it was a fiasco. Over 700 men died because troops were ordered to fire on their own troops and because the Germans torpedoed the exercise and the German attacks were mistaken by many to be part of the war games. Much of the information still seems to be classified.

Part of the reason that we apparently haven’t captured or killed bin Laden is because it was leaked that we were tracking him with a cell phone. Thanks to some loose lips and prying indiscreet sociopathic reporters and lawyers.

At first what might appear to be innocuous and innocent; may be very risky and deadly with deeper and more realistic analyzation.

I think flight manuals and other technical manuals should be available to the general public only after it has properly been cleared through the proper channels and after the aircraft is retired from mainstream military service, and only if there is no technical information that is still sensitive. Redact if necessary.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Copyright © 2008 Lieven Dewitte and Stefaan Vanhastel