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Newbie Joined: Jan 30, 2008 Posts: 8 Status: Offline

the saab came to eielson for red flag one summer and the pilots said they could out turn the saab everytime. i don't know if thats the pilots talking or if it was true

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Newbie Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 4 Status: Offline

dukey172 wrote:

the saab came to eielson for red flag one summer and the pilots said they could out turn the saab everytime. i don't know if thats the pilots talking or if it was true

the Gripenpilots said the same about the F-16s: that Gripen could outturn the F-16 every time...

Newbie Joined: Mar 07, 2008 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

A quite amusing and interesting reading on this discussion, thank you all...

One significant factor that, as far as I can tell, is missing in your comments, is the “by design” unusual balance (center of gravity) that SAAB engineered into it's Gripen (Griffin or "Gryphon").

To my knowledge it's the first and perhaps only modern jet fighter that is built to be unstable in flight - she is very rear heavy...

They (SAAB) once illustrated this with a funny comical little drawing of a three wheeler bike, the pilot was sitting over the front wheel, facing backwards with the two rear wheels in front of him and going 500 m/h in that (backwards) direction...

Anyone who has playing with radio controlled aircraft's (it hurts and cost less) and ignored or forgot to balance at the correct CG-point can verify what this means in terms of control issues that typically leads to a very sudden death after an uncontrolled and very short flight mostly resembling a crazy wild horse or riding a smoking crazy bull...

So SAAB managed to solve this "dilemma" through developing of its computer controlled canard wing (this was before the time of thrust vectoring I must assume)

Well, just a little piece of information that I thought you guys might be interested in...

So no wonder the Gripen would -"kick F-16 afterburners all the way from Stockholm to Albuquerque in a dogfight.” (kind of fun comment huhh...)

Not to bad for an aircraft from a country with a population of only 9 million people, and if I understand this correctly - it's a very cost effective and “cheap” airplane as well...

Simply a personal reflection - for whatever it might be worth...

Thanks

Stryker_Viking
......... Whistle

Um, actually the F-16 was the first aircraft designed with relaxed stability and the F-22 is extreamely unstable, so the SAABs lack of neutral stability is nothing new or unique. And a Viper can still beat a Grippen in a dogfight, jsut like a Grippen can beat a Viper in a dogfight, anything can beat anything.

Enthusiast Joined: Sep 30, 2007 Posts: 80 Status: Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

Um, actually the F-16 was the first aircraft designed with relaxed stability and the F-22 is extreamely unstable, so the SAABs lack of neutral stability is nothing new or unique. And a Viper can still beat a Grippen in a dogfight, jsut like a Grippen can beat a Viper in a dogfight, anything can beat anything.

In a HOBS heater environment who cares wether who wins in a dogfight? What matters is BVR performance, not "Biggles" stuff.

Newbie Joined: Sep 15, 2005 Posts: 6 Status: Offline

DrT, could you elaborate a bit more about the weightgain? Do you mean the aircraft actually becomes lighter after the upgrades?

DrT wrote:

Gripen will kick a$$, upgrades include new engine GE-F414 with 98-110kN. Weightgain total ca 300kg, gives thrust/weight ratio ca 1.14-1.23, thats superb! Combine that with new state of the art AESA radar, METEOR BWR (much better than AMRAAM), and short range air to air IRIS-T (much better than Sidewinders). Data -link superiro to any other, good avionics. Small plane with small radarprofile. Increased payload. This is a tasty little piece of a$$. Look out all Typhoon/Rafale/F-22 Raptor. David is about to give Goliat i serious upprecut... Peace. We will all together defeat the real threat, i.e militant islam. Peace brothers, Dr T

Newbie Joined: Sep 15, 2005 Posts: 6 Status: Offline

You mean there are actually fighterpilots out there more addicted to egotripped boasting than coming as close as possible to the objective truth? Wink

Apan76 wrote:

dukey172 wrote:

the saab came to eielson for red flag one summer and the pilots said they could out turn the saab everytime. i don't know if thats the pilots talking or if it was true

the Gripenpilots said the same about the F-16s: that Gripen could outturn the F-16 every time...

Newbie Joined: Feb 24, 2008 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

KeyTronic wrote:

DrT, could you elaborate a bit more about the weightgain? Do you mean the aircraft actually becomes lighter after the upgrades?

I think he is referring to this presentation: http://www.ntva.no/seminarer/manus/eddy-270207.pdf

On page 62 it states that Gripen E/F will have an empty weight of 7100kg, compared to C/D at 6800kg. My T/W napkin-calculation:
C/D: 8200kp / (6800 + ~2400kg) = 0.89
E/F: 10000kp / (7100 + ~3350kg) = 0.96

Enough to offset the added drag from the new MLG fairings, and give some added performance.

/Bengt

Dr. T, yes, the upgraded Gripen 2010, will finally be the light fighter it was meant to be! And all can finally respect the capabilities. Heck, even India might go for it?!? I wouldn't judge against. But your final statement raises flags, I'm sorry. The advanced Gripen, Rafale, Raptor, EF, etc, are not some conjoined tool to combat one 'true' pre-meditated adversary, as you note. That is a militarily flawed suggestion, from the very intention, I'm sorry.

Advanced Gripen though, will truly be a modern deterrent to any threatening aggressor/bully, for whomever will eventually procure and deploy it.

Newbie Joined: Jun 01, 2008 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

wiki wrote:

Gripen NG

A two-seat "New Technology Demonstrator" has been built, and was presented on 23 April 2008. It has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements. The new aircraft is also referred to as the "Gripen Demo".

The new Gripen NG (Next Generation) will have many new parts and will be powered by the GE/Volvo Aero F414G, a development of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's engine. The engine will have 20% more thrust at 98 kN (22,000 lb), enabling a supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 with air-to-air missiles.

Compared to the Gripen D, the Gripen NG's max takeoff weight has increased from 14,000 to 16,000 kg (30,900-35,300 lb) with an increase in empty weight of 200 kg (440 lb). Due to relocated main landing gear, the internal fuel capacity has increased by 40%, which will increase ferry range to 4,070 km (2,200 nmi). The new undercarriage configuration also allows for the addition of two heavy stores pylons to the fuselage. Its PS-05/A sensor adds a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna for flight testing beginning in mid-2009.
Gripen Demo's maiden flight was conducted on 27 May 2008. The test flight took about 30 minutes and reached a maximum altitude of about 6,400 meters.

F16 is a very good plane, but how long can you modernize...
btw. the new polish f16's block 52+ already broke down multiple times, and they were only 1,5 year in use...

Newbie Joined: Jun 01, 2008 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

mariosti wrote:

wiki wrote:

Gripen NG

A two-seat "New Technology Demonstrator" has been built, and was presented on 23 April 2008. It has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements. The new aircraft is also referred to as the "Gripen Demo".

The new Gripen NG (Next Generation) will have many new parts and will be powered by the GE/Volvo Aero F414G, a development of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's engine. The engine will have 20% more thrust at 98 kN (22,000 lb), enabling a supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 with air-to-air missiles.

Compared to the Gripen D, the Gripen NG's max takeoff weight has increased from 14,000 to 16,000 kg (30,900-35,300 lb) with an increase in empty weight of 200 kg (440 lb). Due to relocated main landing gear, the internal fuel capacity has increased by 40%, which will increase ferry range to 4,070 km (2,200 nmi). The new undercarriage configuration also allows for the addition of two heavy stores pylons to the fuselage. Its PS-05/A sensor adds a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna for flight testing beginning in mid-2009.
Gripen Demo's maiden flight was conducted on 27 May 2008. The test flight took about 30 minutes and reached a maximum altitude of about 6,400 meters.

F16 is a very good plane, but how long can you modernize...
btw. the new polish f16's block 52+ already broke down multiple times, and they were less than 1,5 year in use...

Newbie Joined: Jun 09, 2008 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

I've been reading you all and it has been a pleasure.

Except that is that I found it very strange with this guy announcing he was a Gripen pilot over the Internet.
Don't think that's proper procedure in Sweden.
seems like bad security to me.

And then I'm questioning the comparing of those aircrafts.
Don't they have different roles.
One is primary a defense construct (Gripen)
The other is for attack/defense?

If you are going to buy something for defense purposes then I think Gripen is good.
If you are a country involved in primary 'defending' yourself away from your own country ( ah, no names here :)
Then perhaps you will need a different solution.

As for which country buy which plane :)
Heck we all know that is not the plane anymore that creates the buy.
Well perhaps if the country is very very rich and steered by a en or un-lighted dictator ( The former shah :)

But otherwise money talks and BS walks.

Which mean that there will be a lot of 'secret negotiations' around any arms deal before its made, including 'under the table' talks too.
As well as export restrictions plays a major role etc etc.

I think the guy that wrote that Gripen tries to 'outwit' its competitors got it right though :)
A lot like our submarine HMS Gotland who while on loan to the USA outwitted and sunk a hangar ship in one of those war games.
They extended the lease one more year after that :)
Lucky for them that we are allies ::))

As the mosquito said to the elephant...

Newbie Joined: Mar 07, 2008 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

This is what I am talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ54GS--Rg
http://tubearoo.com/articles/82425/Grip ... atics.html

Looks pretty sexy huhhh...
Crazy Pilot

Newbie Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 4 Status: Offline

At Red Flag 08-3 seven Gripens participated, has anyone the final verdict on how they performed against the vipers?

Newbie Joined: Mar 07, 2008 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

Apan76 wrote:

At Red Flag 08-3 seven Gripens participated, has anyone the final verdict on how they performed against the vipers?

The official Swedish military website recently had an article about Red Flag 08-3 :

(h)ttp://www2.mil.se/sv/Nyheter/Nyheter-milse/Internationella-flygovningen-Red-Flag-genomford/

Quote:
Gripen measure up
Red Flag (Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada in the United States) is considered to be the most complex aerial excercise that exist in the world.

"-- The most important result is that we have shown that we measure up in this context and in the toughest exercise there is" says head of the swedish contingent Lars Helmrich.

The Swedish contingent is back at home again, and a lot of good knowledge and experience has been drawn from their participation.

"-- All operational flight has been implemented at a very high threat level where hostile ground units and aircraft:s have interacted. In addition, we have had the opportunity to practice together with a number of different countries and aircraft types which we never have come in contact with before.
Among other things, the American bomber B 52 Stratofortress, command and air surveillance AWACS and EA-6B Prowler" says contingent commander Lars Helmrich.

During the two week exercise support for ground units with Close Air Support (CAS), and Air interdict (AI: the fight against preplanned land targets) were carried out.

During the second week two of the Swedish pilots attended a desert survival training in which they trained to survive in hostile conditions after a simulated ejection over enemy territory.

In total, the Swedish unit flew 65 sorties and dropped six laser guided bombs (GBU 12) of which two were live. Approximately 900 shots of cannon rounds were fired at ground targets and to deceive heat seeking missiles a 1000 flares were spent.

"-- The most important result is that we have shown that we measure up in this context and in the toughest exercise that exist. We've also received confirmation that we have a very good aircraft, both in terms of survivability, and mission execution during high threat levels. We now know that we have a very competent staff throughout all functions. With that, we have confirmed that Flygvapnet is ready to participate on international missions with the JAS 39 Gripen" says Lars Helmrich.

The next step is, according to Helmrich, a further development of the Gripen-units. He looks for better endurance through aerial refuelling, night vision capabilities and increased interoperability training with NATO's command functions.

"-- We have drawn valuable experiences, both positive and some areas where there is room for improvement. The main challenge in the exercise has certainly been the desert heat in Nevada, which was a new experience for us" concludes Helmrich.
End Quote.

Laughing

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